Curse

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Power trading cannot cause inflation. There must be more ectos/cash in the system for players to have the capacity to pay ever-escalating prices for limited items. Easy ectos do cause power traders to get rich, because players' time becomes more valuable and because more suckers enter the trading system.

The richest players in the game were holding limited miniatures (and other rarities like q7s and unconditionals) at the correct two times - while the armbrace/ecto dupe was going on and during the recent price boom driven by easy UWSC ecto and easy XTH keys. You cannot compete with income that does not require time investment. Holders of minis took a risk and won big. (After all, ANet could have released more at any time and hosed them.)

Farming is guaranteed to make you wealthy but unlikely to make you rich. The only way you can begin to compete with the power traders by farming is to find OP farms and exploit them for as long as you can without sharing them. You CAN outearn a power trader that way, per unit of time invested. HawkofStorms is mostly correct: Farming known farms IS for chumps.

The most efficient money-making method that I have data on was buying gems cheap and selling the armbraces during the Ursan era. I know a guy that made 5000 ectos in a month that way. I suspect that the champ point farmers made more, but I don't have proof.

Dungeon running is FAR more efficient than farming if you can find customers fast enough.

coil · Sep 10, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

UWSC is a very TINY part of GW. it is very popular in a very small circle of players. outside of that, people don't give a rat's ass about it.

so why are there so many fanatic qq'ers out there?

if its so small, leave it alone. let them play the way they want to play. the only way they're affecting you is by giving you a shot at cheaper obsidian armor and allowing you to get taxi'd to areas youve already beaten on 5 previous characters.

yes the skill is silly; theoretically good on paper but it doesnt translate well in game. could have been fixed with more oversight upon implementation (changing monster skillset/makeup, etc). but to change it so late is also in itself silly.

and for those arguing about endgame...a full hall is the game's endgame. and the only way you're ever going to get close to that is by grinding and farming for titles and very, very expensive minis.

Pleikki · Sep 10, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyn_Darksight

[/B] During the time I've been playing, ecto prices dropped from 8k to 5k before there was a pug-friendly UWSC (37.5%), and from 5k to 4.3k after (14%).

During the time ive played. Ecto Rised to High as 18k. and got down to 13-15k. and then to 9-10k in nf release.. And when Speedclear scene and ursan etc came. it dropped to 5-6k.. and been low since..

And no. Trading aint the thing ruining economy. with trading there aint coming any new ectos ingame. just rolling old ones around..

QueenofDeath · Sep 10, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

The answer to question two is very easy - for the challenge. To play the game. Unless you (like many other players) believe that the only reason you should ever do something in the game is if you receive a tangible reward...which kind of puts the "handcuffs" on your playing experience, IMO.

Answers to question one:

1. Have you ever tried to complete a mission solo without heroes or henchmen? For starters, try doing the Dragon's Lair in this way...it will scratch the surface on a whole other way to play the game for you.

2. Have you ever created a character, not accessed storage once or traded with another player, to see how you would fare? This will give you the feeling of the game when you first started playing it...it's a very refreshing experience.

3. Have you ever tried to come up with an original build using rarely used skills, and actually succeed with that build? Talk about satisfaction to know that you're not just using a build that you read about on the internet...you've created something.

Those are just examples on how I've made the game still fun to this day (after 4+ years of playing) long after the "end of the storyline" was reached. If you feel that PvP, farming and title grinding are all that's left to do in the game, then I believe you've severely handcuffed yourself.

There's one important element you left out. Fun is SUBJECTIVE and thus what you listed as your fun is stupid and retarded to me. Fun to me is getting increases in power and objects that aren't the same 15^50 or +5^50 crapola this game delivers. Gaining experience used to be fun until you reached level 20. Until the ability to trade in skill points for things Experience gain was worthless once you had all the skills you wanted. When they added PVE only skills I was elated as they give me more power except they went and destroyed one of the best ones they made "ursans blessing". This is where the game goes screwy. They let SF live the high life and the one skill the majority of people who grouped enjoyed they nerfed to smithereens.
The Devs are stupid and have no clue how to make the game FUN for everyone.

reaper with no name · Sep 10, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Some of us find fun in playing without having the sentence "there's no point in your build; XXX is superior" constantly nagging you at the back of your skull.

Hence, why I care so much about profession balance in PvE. Unfortunately, SF completely kills any hope of that ever existing.

Shadowhaze · Sep 10, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

There's one important element you left out. Fun is SUBJECTIVE and thus what you listed as your fun is stupid and retarded to me. Fun to me is getting increases in power and objects that aren't the same 15^50 or +5^50 crapola this game delivers. Gaining experience used to be fun until you reached level 20. Until the ability to trade in skill points for things Experience gain was worthless once you had all the skills you wanted. When they added PVE only skills I was elated as they give me more power except they went and destroyed one of the best ones they made "ursans blessing". This is where the game goes screwy. They let SF live the high life and the one skill the majority of people who grouped enjoyed they nerfed to smithereens.
The Devs are stupid and have no clue how to make the game FUN for everyone.

Agreed, "fun" depends on each person and what they like to do with the game.

To the bolded, I need to agree. It seems kind of two-faced to nerf one, while not the other.

And someone else posted an interesting solution - letting SF not be permable. That is pretty much the "problem" anyway. So that would be a reasonable alteration perhaps.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

and for those arguing about endgame...a full hall is the game's endgame. and the only way you're ever going to get close to that is by grinding and farming for titles and very, very expensive minis.

Since the quest for those limited items is a competitive process, easy ectos just make your job that much harder. Your competition is doing the same thing, driving the prices up faster than you can farm the ectos. If all you want is the armor, weapons and cheaper minis, you're better off in an easy ecto world. But if you want the rarer minis...not so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleikki

During the time ive played. Ecto Rised to High as 18k. and got down to 13-15k. and then to 9-10k in nf release.. And when Speedclear scene and ursan etc came. it dropped to 5-6k.. and been low since.

You must have started after the Great Inflation when ectos hit 33k because the original trader code was bad. This was during the 55 craze; Monk sup runes ran 70k a pop and up. And we were all a lot poorer back then; 70k meant something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

There's one important element you left out. Fun is SUBJECTIVE and thus what you listed as your fun is stupid and retarded to me.

The Devs are stupid and have no clue how to make the game FUN for everyone.

This thread should be sufficient to convince you that the problem is that the devs cannot please all of the people all of the time, and not that the devs are stupid. People play this game for radically different reasons, and those preferences clash at times.

That said, the devs did make some design decisions that made their job a lot harder. Some of those errors were obviously avoidable. (Ex: it should have been immediately obvious that PvE skills were a terrible idea, and that tying them to grind was even more foolish.)

Most of the rancor that is deservedly aimed at the devs derives from the power creep in NF and EotN. This was blatantly aimed at making sales rather than deepening the game while maintaining its core integrity.

But we wouldn't be having this discussion if the devs hadn't gotten it so right in Prophecies. And Factions did provide a blessedly diverse PvP experience for a while despite its obvious PvE shortcomings.

ValaOfTheFens · Sep 10, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

idc if ANet nerfs SF. I'd have liked to get ectos for Obby armor and Chaos Gloves the easy way but if not then I'll find another way. Whenever a potent skill gets nerfed people are forced to think in a different way and thinking is good. I have no doubt that SF will ever be unusable, no matter how many times it gets nerfed. People are just too clever for that to happen. I hope ANet doesn't go the same route they took when they nerfed solo trapping. >.< EW is so fail now.

coil · Sep 10, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Since the quest for those limited items is a competitive process, easy ectos just make your job that much harder. Your competition is doing the same thing, driving the prices up faster than you can farm the ectos. If all you want is the armor, weapons and cheaper minis, you're better off in an easy ecto world. But if you want the rarer minis...not so.

yes, for armor, weapons, titles, cheap minis, there is no way you'll fill a hall with "casual gameplay". you need a lot of money even for the easy items/titles to fill. for the rare minis, i agree with you, but instead of taking the attitude the damage has been done i can't catch up, i'll get what i can and hope i can find one cheap. because, in all reality, if sf becomes unusable, then the people that i'm competing against will just move to the next best farm (as will i most likely) and the competition will continue, just at a slower rate until we give up or there are no more undedicateds to purchase.

Jetdoc · Sep 10, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It's that I prefer to derive a future benefit from the application of those skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

There's one important element you left out. Fun to me is getting increases in power and objects...gaining experience...give me more power...

In other words, both of you (like a large portion of the playerbase) require something tangible beyond playing the game in order to derive fun from the game. I completely understand that, but, in your own words, that means that you have placed restrictions on your playstyle/objectives that you are holding others accountable for.

MisterB · Sep 10, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

I hope ANet doesn't go the same route they took when they nerfed solo trapping. >.< EW is so fail now.

Solo trapping is not nerfed; you don't need Energizing Wind to kill with traps, not even in hard mode. Power creep from stronger skills and faster builds (like perma SF, for example) makes trapping less time efficient, and loot scaling drastically reduces drops from multiple simultaneous kills. Loot scaling hurt trapping as a means of solo farming far more than the duration reduction of EW.

Arkantos · Sep 10, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

so why are there so many fanatic qq'ers out there?

if its so small, leave it alone. let them play the way they want to play. the only way they're affecting you is by giving you a shot at cheaper obsidian armor and allowing you to get taxi'd to areas youve already beaten on 5 previous characters.

yes the skill is silly; theoretically good on paper but it doesnt translate well in game. could have been fixed with more oversight upon implementation (changing monster skillset/makeup, etc). but to change it so late is also in itself silly.

and for those arguing about endgame...a full hall is the game's endgame. and the only way you're ever going to get close to that is by grinding and farming for titles and very, very expensive minis.

'Yes it's broken, but only a small part of the community uses it, so don't nerf it' is a pretty bad logic. The skill is obviously broken, it needs to be fixed, regardless of how many people use it. And no, it affects people more than what you stated, but I'm not going to go into that seeing as I've discussed it at least 100 times in the past year or so.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

because, in all reality, if sf becomes unusable, then the people that i'm competing against will just move to the next best farm (as will i most likely) and the competition will continue, just at a slower rate until we give up or there are no more undedicateds to purchase.

Right, but if the overall rate of production is slowed, and you find a superior farm to the one that everyone is grinding, your advantage relative to the competition is magnified. You should want all the suckers to be grinding money out at 10k per hour while you're socking away 50-100k an hour. Fewer new ectos in the system slows the price spiral.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

In other words, both of you (like a large portion of the playerbase) require something tangible beyond playing the game in order to derive fun from the game. I completely understand that, but, in your own words, that means that you have placed restrictions on your playstyle/objectives that you are holding others accountable for.

What I'm holding others accountable for is the undesirable externality that SF farming creates. Even a laissez faire neoclassical economist will grant that one of the purposes of the state is to correct such problems. In veiled terms, what you're really saying is, "If you play the way I do everything would be fine for you." But we're not you, and all that players are asking for is the perpetuation of what they enjoy doing.

Games in this genre have been using rare shinies as endgame content for what, a dozen years? It's not unreasonable for players to demand that this endgame objective be supported properly.

However, in the case of SF the skill is completely, hopelessly imba. It has to go. The problem, as with Ursan, is that ANet tolerated the existence of the build for as long as they did. This permitted a large community to spring up, and it's not surprising that members of that community don't want to see the nerf. Doesn't it seem a little coincidental to you that using Ursan required an EotN purchase, and that the SF bar requires all expansions?

Just saying.

Age · Sep 10, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I am not worried about SF. but don't touch all the other farming builds as there won't be much to do.

DarkGanni · Sep 10, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

As always with the nerf of SF a new gimmick will come up, pugs can't seem to be able to run a good balanced team. Para, rit, warriors (in the way they are MEANT to be played), eles, necros, monk....you get the picture.

GW1 is a lost case.

PS: tank and spank is the problem.

AtomicMew · Sep 10, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists. Because it exists, some things are way way way faster than others, and that means most people will simply use Shadow Form as a shortcut instead of doing things balance-way, as you put it.

That's... basically what I said. In conclusion,you are saying doing things efficiently (i.e., farming) is more important to you than doing things that are "fun"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

The farming behavior of you and others like you creates a large negative externality. If I have 1000 ectos, and farming drives the price of ectos down 1k each, then I just lost a full storage box worth of platinum. Your farming affects others and makes them worse off. So they want your farm gone. Simple.

Yup, agreed. Rational self-interest is a very simple concept. But I have the feeling most people in this thread arguing down SF don't have 1000 ecto. At the very least, this isn't the rhetoric other people have used.

Quote:

The other negative externality is the effect on the player base at the margin. No, you and others like you won't balanceway UW. But not all UWSC players are as money-motivated as you. You can't infer what the entire UWSC player base will do post-nerf from what you would do. Attempting to generalize from an instance is fail logic, and you're implicitly doing that in your reasoning without realizing it.

I never argued from purely my own motivations. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry. I base my assertion on doing quite a number of UWSC's myself, what I observe from people's attitudes and their conversations.

Secondly, what you are saying (that there is no evidence most UWSC players won't do UW balanced) directly contradicts what you said earlier; you previously concluded that many people are goal-oriented and enjoy farming. You also attributed this mindset to people who do UWSC. If both those statements are true, then following your logic, most people who do UWSC won't do UW balanced, since UW balanced will NEVER be an efficient farm.

At any rate, you have misrepresented my argument. It was never my contention that UWSC is an efficient farm. As you already noted, for example, UWSC is strictly dominated by dungeon running. There are also countless other non-SF based farms that are around the same order as UWSC.

My argument is that UWSC is a "fun" farm with decent efficiency. There is ever-present risk in every area, which makes it "fun", compared to other farms with no risk. It is not, as some people believe, keep up SF and no danger lalalala- far from it. Also, UWSC has a built in high degree of variety. There are 7 different areas, e.g., "subfarms" and you can just switch to a different "subfarm" if you find yourself getting bored.

Regardless of whether you agree with my reasons for enjoying UWSC, I already acknowledged it is entirely preference; there are people who are too close minded to enjoy it, and there are people who have tried it and legitimately do not enjoy it. However, there are a very, very large number that enjoy doing UWSC. At this point, more people than any other single activity. This point is undeniable, and I will not bother to argue with anyone who can be so irrational as to as to deny this.

You say that failing to change up the meta will create a "mass exodus." Au contraire, killing UWSC will create a mass exodus. Unless A.net is willing to add new content, either by actual new content or significantly changing up an old area (DoA), there will be literally nothing left for many "goal oriented" players to do.

HawkofStorms · Sep 11, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

People threatened a mass exodus when Ursan was nerfed... and nothing changed. After the qq fest, things got back to normal.

Honestly traversc, since most people aren't even bothering to listen to the other sides arguments, I'm just going to stop posting on this thread. I feel like a member of Congress.

What's great is that A.net has already said that SF is going up on the chopping block (which was the original point of this thread). So really, all your arguing is pointless. No matter how much you complain, the change is inevitably going to happen. Get used to it.

AtomicMew · Sep 11, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

People threatened a mass exodus when Ursan was nerfed... and nothing changed. After the qq fest, things got back to normal.

Honestly traversc, since most people aren't even bothering to listen to the other sides arguments, I'm just going to stop posting on this thread. I feel like a member of Congress.

You're the one not listening.

I already stated why that nerfing SF is different than the Ursan nerf. That is, no new content to keep people attached to the game. Here, let me quote myself.

"killing UWSC will create a mass exodus. Unless A.net is willing to add new content, either by actual new content or significantly changing up an old area (DoA), there will be literally nothing left for many "goal oriented" players to do. "

Quote:

What's great is that A.net has already said that SF is going up on the chopping block (which was the original point of this thread). So really, all your arguing is pointless. No matter how much you complain, the change is inevitably going to happen. Get used to it.

I hardly see SF being put on A.net's "big list of things to do" definitive of anything. I think you're reading way too much into it and seeing whatever you want to see. It doesn't actually say "oh ya, were gonna nerf SF for sure." That they're going to "do" SF is entirely ambiguous.

Furthermore, I mean, it's a tweet, lol. C'mon.

Jeydra · Sep 11, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's... basically what I said. In conclusion,you are saying doing things efficiently (i.e., farming) is more important to you than doing things that are "fun"?

PuGGing is fun, yet so long as VSF exists ... good luck PuGGing Thommis HM. Or UW balance-way, for that matter. I would've thought that's obvious to you.

Now give me arguments outside the UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you could explain it, wouldn't you? Why are you asking me?

My point was simple: the three activities I listed are the only endgame activities that are ends in and of themselves. Anything else PvE is aimless drift that uses time inefficiently. You may not see it this way, but you should recognize that there's a significant chunk of the player base that does.

Sure I can explain it, I'm just pointing out how narrow-minded your thinking is.

Lots of people play the game simply because it's fun. You can say that's inefficient use of time maybe, but who cares: it's fun, that's what really matters. Why do I H/H Forgewight HM instead of getting a PuG? Because Forgewight HM is one of the hardest areas H/H'able in the game and I do it just because I can. Why do I PuG in Thunderhead Keep HM? Because the mission is easy (for someone of my skill at least) and I might as well help some less-skillful players pass the mission. Why do I do the Last Heirophant so much, I must've done it like 20 times already? Because there aren't many people who can do Duncan HM at will with a non-farming build, but I can.

The idea that you've got nothing to do after you finish the game except farm is ridiculous. The idea that you've got nothing to do after you finish the game except PvP, farm and title grind is ridiculous, too. The idea that you've got nothing to do after you finish the game except PvP, farm, title grind and Zaishen coin farm is still missing the point. Sure I do the ZQs everyday, but not primarily for the rewards. I already have a Heavy Equipment Pack, I've sold three more and given one away, I don't need any more when I don't use gold for anything other than Lockpicks / Identification Kits / Salvage Kits.

I really don't understand why this argument was even brought up in the first place, it's so obviously wrong.

DreamWind · Sep 11, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Play the game how you like to play. Why concern yourself with other people? Apparently, you think that there are lots of other people that think the way you do. Why don't you guys get together and balance-way UW? What exactly is stopping you?

I'm sorry, but what you just said is one of the stupidest things I've heard in my entire life. That mindset is one of the biggest problems with the game.

And would people stop with this stupid "mass exodus" crap. I don't really care if there is a mass exodus (which there won't be)...because if there is THE GAME IS BETTER OFF BALANCED AND WITHOUT THOSE PEOPLE. I know far more people who have left the game due to inbalanced crap not being fixed for ages rather than people who have left due to nerfs.